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October 2008 Posts
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The first video is very inspiring. They make a good case for the technology, especially remote power. But I guess it will come down to cost.
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Good interview today with Raser's David West- very interesting work they are doing with electric motors and drivetrains. Given their size and roominess, and pre-high gas price popularity, I never did understand why someone did not start off with an EREV SUV or Truck. I look forward to their announcement at the end of the quarter (December or January?). The link to the Hybrid Consortium is: http://www.hybridconsortium.org/
Interesting unicycle- but even in the video, it does not look that stable- but still, interesting idea! Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-9mYCXNshQ
The Focus Design web site is at: http://www.focusdesigns.com/default.aspx
For those in the right State, the Electric Mini Cooper sign-up web site is at: http://www.minispace.com/en_us/
The greentech article on Apowercap's capacitor assist is at: http://greenlight.greentechmedia.com/2008/10/21/is-this-the-way-to-build-electric-cars-669/
This article alludes to capacitors being built into a lead acid battery, somewhat different than the main thrust of the article, where Apowercap seems to have the capacitors as a separate energy storage from the batteries. Both are different from EESTOR, where their ultracapacitor is the main battery. The lead-acid built-in capcacitors are a great idea I think- in fact I have posted links to two companies that are developing these before. One is mentioned in the article- Axion Power at: http://www.axionpower.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
...and one developed by Australia's CSIRO that was tested in a Honda Insight for 100,000 miles and documented in a Technology Review article at: http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/20105/
And lastly- how safe are the air tanks in the Tata/MDI car? Well, at least in the original MDI car, the tanks are not steel, but Carbon Fiber, and according to MDI info from their site last year, should never explode, but, in a worse-case scenerio, would just split open and safely expel the compressed air. Although, now their site says the tanks have been tested and do not split up at all. The link to the tank info is at: http://www.mdi.lu/english/reservoirs.php
The US version of the car, Zero Pollution Motors, still holds to the original conclusion in case of a bad crash, that the tanks will safely split: http://zeropollutionmotors.us/?page_id=42
General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) has chosen a unit of South Korea's LG Chem Ltd (051910.KS: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) to supply lithium-ion batteries for its Chevrolet Volt.
Compact Power Inc, a Detroit-area based unit of LG Chem, and a partnership between Germany's Continental AG (CONG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and U.S.-based A123 Systems have been in the race to supply the electric Volt with battery packs. [ID:nN22397790]
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssRetailSpecialty/idUSLN27138620081023?pageNumber=5&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true
The Chevy Volt gets a black-eye on PBS's Frontline
On a recent edition of Frontline, they show the Chevy Volt as being rather hopeless and incompetent. The Volt Concept Vehicle fails to make it up a small hill for a photo-shoot. No context is given to this footage and no mention is make to mule vehicles with the full drive train (the concept doesn't have the real E-REV drive train.)
To see the video
1) to go http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/heat/view/7.html
2) Go to Chapter 7, hopefully the link will take you to that chapter
3) move to time marker 6:10, if you wait for the cache to fill, you can advance to that time
Whenever one of these manufacturers makes the "batteries had to be developed" point, why don't you ask them about the batteries used in the RAV-4 EV. Those batteries (nimh) have been around a long time and they provide a range of 100 miles plus. Why not make EVs now with that technology?
Fred
A follow-up on the capacitor/lead-acid hybrid battery from CSIRO in Australia- they have signed distribution agreements with Furukawa Battery Company in Japan (for Japan and Thailand) and with US-based East Penn for North American distribution. The link to their news is at: http://www.csiro.au/news/UltraBattery4HybridCars.html
Unfortunately, it looks like the dreaded two-year wait for arrival:-( The web site for East Penn is: http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/
They have a similar press release under the ‘What’s New’ -->’Press Release’ link along the top of the web page.
Fred, aka rodmiller,
I have wondered about the NiMH batteries as well. There must be some reason they are not being used in EVs.
You site the case of RAV-4 using them and that is true. But it is also true that they are in the Prius. But my understanding is that the Prius battery holds 2 KWH and weighs 400 pounds. If we scaled that up to the 16 KWH Chevy Volt battery, the battery would weigh 3200 pounds. So that doesn't make sense, I must be missing something here. Somehow, I am guessing the NiMH batteries in the RAV-4EV are different from the NiMH batteries in my Prius. But I don't know what the difference is.
It would be nice to get an answer to this question.
Thanks
John C. Briggs
John:
According to Wik,
The RAV4EV has 24 12-volt 95Ah NiMH batteries capable of storing 27.4kWh of energy. (Is there a way to type past this quote box).
This site has simple specs on the RAV-4 batteries. avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav98.pdf
BATTERYManufacturer: PanasonicType: Nickel Metal HydrideNumber of Modules: 24Weight of Module: 18.75 kgWeight of Pack(s): 461 kgPack Locations: UnderbodyNominal Module Voltage: 12 VNominal System Voltage: 288 VNominal Capacity (C/3): 95 Ah
Here is a powerpoint presentation on the RAV-4 made to CARB by the EAA. http://eaaeurope.org/Survey_RAV4EV_Ron_Freund_CARB_2006.pdf
There is a lot of conspiracy discussion about patent squatting at the yahoo EV site. I think it is factual to say that Chevron controls the patent for RAV-4 batteries. Here is a post at that site about the patent issues with the RAV-4 battery. It should be noted that THE YAHOO EV GROUP CENSORS -OUT all posts about EVcast.com from their posts. http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/electric_vehicles_for_sale/message/4804
Fred,
Thanks for the information. So I think I had some wrong information on the Prius battery, So let me try again. Based on the Wiki entryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius
Prius (Gen-III) batteryWeight: 45 kg (99 pounds)Capacity: 1.31 KWHSpecific Energy: 29 WH/kg
RAV-4EV batteryWeight: 461 kgCapacity: 27 KWH (288 V x 95AH)Specific Energy: 59 WH/kg
So the RAV-4 batteries have much higher storage density (59 vs 29 KWH) than the Prius. I am not sure why this would be. It is possible that the RAV-4 EV battery is engineered for full discharge and the Prius battery is only setup for partial discharge. It is also possible that larger batteries can be packed with a higher density, I don't really know.
Looking around on the web, there are some guesses that a Prius battery costs about $3000 and the RAV-4EV battery costs about $30,000.
The Vectrix Scooter has a 3.7KWH battery, and with a price tag of $9,000, I would guess they are paying $3000-$5000 for the battery. These batteries are NiMH and come from Gold Peak.
I wonder if the Gold Peak/Vectrix batteries can be used for a car. If the batteries are 3.7KWH and the RAV-4EV needs 27KWH then we would need 7 Vectrix battery packs to power up the RAV-4EV.
I am not sure what to make about the conspiracy theories about Chevron vs Panasonic and NiMH batteries. Clearly Chevron sued Panasonic and won, so Panasonic cannot make the RAV-4EV batteries anymore. However, my understanding is that Panasonic is still making Prius NiMH batteries. So I don't understand all of this.
I might be missing something, but some of Raser's stated numbers don't seem to add up for me. For example, they state that they have a 100 Kw generator driven by an efficient ICE with the ICE operating at 30% of its peak power output. 100 Kw is about 134 hp. If 134 hp represents 30% of the peak power output of the ICE, then the ICE would have a peak power output of 447 hp. That does not sound like a small ICE to me! (Maybe I don't correctly understand what they are trying to say.)
IWantAnEV
From the second video
"this is primarily achieved by operating the engine only at its peak efficiency of approximately of 30% to recharge batteries rather than at the average of 15% efficiency when accelerating the vehicle"
This is different from your post above of "30% of its peak power output."
So from the quote in the video you only need to get 100KW from the ICE to run the 100 KW generator. The engine only needs 134 HP (100KW) under that condition to power the generator. This seems like a nice small engine like I have in my Toyota Corolla, which is very cool.
But interesting to see that they are using a 200 KW (268 HP) traction motor (AC induction) and only a 100 KW (134 HP) generator (DC brushless). Since the traction motor is twice as powerful as the generator, the generator could NOT power the traction motor for a long period of time. But I think that is OK. The batteries must supply the bursts of power for accelerating.
I still don't get it. If they are "operating the engine only at its peak efficiency of approximately of 30%", what is that 30% of if not peak output? They also state that the generator can be used to supply 100Kw for work sites, so that seems to imply the ICE is providing the 100KW (134 hp) (plus efficiency losses). Some more units in their references would be very helpful!
With regard to the current Prius battery, the references that I have found indicate that it has a Specific Energy of 46 Wh/kg. (This rating does seem to be at the module level though.)
http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Battery_Specs
Thanks for the informaiton on the Prius Pack.
Actually the link shows the current battery at 41 WH/kg, The 2004 battery is 46 WH/kg. But that is a minor point.
What is more interesting from your link is the difference between the module specific energy and the pack specific energy
Pack 27.5 WH/KgModule 41.3 WH/Kg
Working with the numbers, there are 30 modules that are 1.51 KG each so we see
Pack = 68 Kg30 modules = 45.3 Kg
So there is 22.7 Kg (50 pounds) of weight in the pack that has nothing to do with the batteries.
But anyway you look at it, these Prius batteries have much lower energy density than the 59 WH/kg calculated for the RAV-4EV. I don't know why.
Regarding
"operating the engine only at its peak efficiency of approximately of 30%",
Perhaps it is already clear, but let me try. This statement is saying that 30% of the Energy (and Power) in the gasoline is converted to mechanical work. That means that 70% of the Energy (and Power) in the gasoline is lost to heat. That is why if you stand by an SUV in the summer, there is a lot of heat coming out of the engine compartment.
All Prius from 2004 until now use the new battery that has the 46 Wh/kg rating. (This is the reference link for the actual battery module from the page that I previously referenced.)
http://www.peve.jp/e/hevjyusi.html
For an apples to apples comparision, the NiMh battery (at the module level) in the RAV4 EV was rated at a specific energy of 63 Wh/kg.
http://www.evnut.com/rav_battery_data_sheet.html
Maybe the difference is related to the patent issue mentioned in other posts?
"This statement is saying that 30% of the Energy (and Power) in the gasoline is converted to mechanical work."
Thanks! That make sense. I definitely did not get the "30% of the energy of gasoline" before.
My mistake, I think I actually pulled the number for the 2006 Lexus, not the Prius.
so we have
Prius = 46WH/kgRAV4-EV = 63WH/kg
This is at the module level. When the batteries are built into a PACK, this can drop significantly to 27WH/kg (at least for the Lexus), which is less than half of the RAV4-EV module energy density.
I suspect that the weight of the battery for the Prius is much less of an issue than for the RAV-4EV. When the engineering for the RAV-4EV began, weight must have been the most important issue on their mind and so they ended up with a higher energy density battery.
Thanks for the info.
I just noticed a bigger difference between the two batteries: Specific Power
Prius = 1300 W/kgRAV-4EV = 200 W/kg
So it looks like the Prius battery was developed to be high power rather than high energy density.
The other interesting graph is the Specific Power versus temperature curve. It looks like at -40 degrees, the Prius battery will have almost 0 power.
I thought I would add this into the discussion on batteries.
http://www.lionev.com/Battery_module_pricing.html
Here are some Li-Ion batteries for sale. They are available with modules with the following specs
Voltage: = 3.2VAmp-h = 200 AhEnergy = 640 WHWeight = 6.7 KgSpecific Energy = 95 WH/Kg
This is lot bettery than the 63WH/Kg of the Rav-4EV batteries.
A 24KWH pack cost $20,000 and weighs 248kg or 545 lbs.
So thinking about the Tesla with 53KWH of batteries, let's say that two packs of 24KWH is roughly the same as 53KWH. So the batteries in the Tesla might cost $40,000, or more given that they are liquid cooled.
If you want to see the guts of a Li-Ion battery as it is being made here is a video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqywKcJ0J2M&feature=related
Thanks John.
You are getting at the core of the battery discussion. Despite the lower power density of the RAV-4 NiMH, a volt or pluggin prius using them could have a pluggin range of at least 80 miles. Sign Me up!
It is available technology at lower cost than Li. What are we missing?
Maybe this warrants a show titled, "Who Killed the RAV-EV battery."
Fred from Manic oil Price Capitol of the Planet
Fred, One serious concern that I have about this technology is price.
Given the data that I have seen on the batteries and the expected price of the Chevy Volt, I think that plug-in vehicles are probably going to be a $10,000 to $15,000 premium over a non-plug-in vehicle, at least for a while. This seems like a big premium and I wonder how many people are willing to pay that kind of premium just to drive electric. Sure you save money on gasoline, but you have to spend it on an expensive car. The ROI is probably similar to my solar panels, i.e., not very good.
Would you seriously spend $10,000 to $15,000 more of your own money to buy such a vehicle? I would not. I am just not in a position to do that. Perhaps there are many thousands, perhaps millions of people that would pay for this, but I am worried the number will be small.
To make a difference to the USA, in terms of reducing pollution, reducing foreign oil, reducing global warming, etc, EV's or E-REV's will need to be affordable.
ThanksJohn C. Briggs
P.S., What data do we have to show that NiMH is cheaper than Li-ION? It might be, but I am not sure.
I see your point John. The prius battery pack costs ~$3,600. So what is the real cost of a RAV-4 Pack? In 2000 I think it was estimated to be $15 not $35K.
How much of the $3.6K is for patent rights to Chevron? The runs out in 2010 right?
Perhaps cheaper batteries would be a result of crashing price of commodities too.
Nice input by David West. Well, modifications on auto parts is really needed to build electric vehicles, especially the Unicycle Electric Vehicle that was mentioned.
