EVcast #181: Interview with Greg Blencoe

 InnovaTek is testing a hand-sized microreactor that can convert virtually any liquid fuel into hydrogen, producing a portable hydrogen stream for use in adjoining fuel-cells.

http://gas2.org/2008/03/19/how-biodiesel-fuel-cells-could-power-the-future-and-your-car/comment-page-2/

If this works no need for storing hydrogen on board no need for a hydrogen infrastructure.

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Ahem,  but I can already run my car from liquid fuels.  Why would I convert my liquid fuel to hydrogen to power my car?  Why not power the car directly from liquid fuels like we do now?

  After reading the InnovaTek literature, it seems like the only benefit is quiet backup power.  Otherwise, I think a standard ICE would be better.

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Greg put up a valiant defense.  But the reality is that Hydrogen is NOT a practical energy solution for cars.  Yes, EVs have a range issue and slow fill-up issue . . . but those issues are MUCH better solved by plug-in hybrids such as the Chevy Volt. 

Here is why Hyrdogen is a dead technology:

1) There is no good source of hydrogen . . . it is a storage medium, not an energy source.  There are no hydrogen wells, mines, or farms.  It must be created.  And if we use electricity to create it, why not just use that electricity directly since every time you convert forms of energy you lose efficiency.

2) The best current way to make hydrogen is to convert natural gas.  What's the point?  We can just create cars that directly use natural gas.  Picken's has a point.  However, natural gas still creates CO2 emissions.

3) Fuel cell technology is still WAY too expensive.  Yes, EVs struggle hard due to the high cost of batteries.  But EVs are just a little be away from being economically viable . . . fuel cell vehicles are a LONG way from being economically viable.  Ballard Research, the most well-known fuel cell company, has abandoned its research efforts on creating mobile fuel cell vehicles. 

4) Series-hybrid EVs provide every advantage hydrogen cars provide over pure EVs but at a FAR cheaper price.

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Hi John- the reason would be that the reformer/fuel cell system would be cleaner, more efficient and quieter- but of course even the fuel cell part needs tremendous improvement in the area of cost and durability.

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William,
    Thanks for the feedback.

     I struggle to understand the "cleaner" aspects about hydrogen fuel cell powered cars.  I spent some time last night on the web researching it.  But I came up short in my understanding.

     Firstly, it seems clear that when using solar panels to generate electricity to power a car, then hydrogen fuel cells are a loser.  It will take 3 to 4 times as many solar panels to power a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle as an EV (or E-REV for that matter).

     So how about the CO2 part of been "cleaner".  Well there are some good claims out there.  The Honda FCX Clarity (which I have seen in person and love) claims to produce 101 grams/km CO2.   By contrast, a Prius (which I own) produces about 128 grams/km CO2.  So the Prius is like 25% worse than the FCX Clarity on the CO2 front.

      Looking at natural gas vehicles, they seem to have CO2 output very close to the FCX Clarity.  So it starts to beg the question, why not burn the natural gas directly in the vehicles (aka the Picken's plan) rather than steam reforming it into hydrogen and then using the hydrogen in a fuel cell vehicle.  If you make the CNG vehicle a hybrid, it would probably be better than the FCX Clarity in terms of CO2 output.

      So in the end, I am left with two conflicting feelings.  First, if there is some serious benefit to hydrogen, then it should be pursued.  Secondly, if hydrogen is clearly a loser (which I am leaning towards), people should stop talking about it as if it is the future of transportation.  Hydrogen, to me, is like nuclear fusion.  You can keep spending a little money on it year by year, just in case you find something good.  However, talk about it in very conditional terms like "if this" or "possibly that".

       It is time to talk about solutions that work like hybrids, clean diesel, E-REVs or EVs.

Later

John C. Briggs

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Re: Hydrogen's inefficient

"I'm a proponent of hydrogen from Wind and Solar" said Greg

"What's the concern with being a little more inefficient." said Greg

  Two points here.  My understanding is that hydrogen is not "a little more inefficient" .  It takes 3 to 4 times as much electricity to power a hydrogen car starting with electricity than a xEV.

   So what does that mean to the user of the vehicle.  Assuming an xEV with an efficiency of 0.2KWH/mile and 15,000miles/year, you would need a solar array to produce 3000KWH/year.  Well coincidentally, that is just what I have on my house.  The full cost was US$25,000  So we can see

  Solar array to power xEV                   US$25,000
  Solar array to power hydrogen car    US$75,000     (assuming 3x in KWH)

So this "little inefficiency" actually costs an additional $50,000 for the owner of the vehicle. Oh, also, it would not fit on my roof.  So I don't know where to put it.

  Granted, the numbers would look better if we were talking about large wind projects, but still 3X more energy means 3X more cost for the renewable energy projects.

    This makes me wonder why Greg holds this viewpoint.  Does he really believe what he is saying, or does he simply need to say this for the sake of his company. Does he really not understand the efficiency question?  Does his brushing this issue aside work with politicians?

   Alternatively, perhaps I am grossly misinformed about the efficiency of hydrogen cars.

There is one strong outspoken critic of hydrogen that is actually in the fuel cell business.  His name is Ulf Bossel.  Hydrogen Fuel Cells are so inefficient, that he actually said they will no longer be discussed at the Lucerne Fuel Cell Conference.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/18120

Here is an interview with Mr. Bossel

http://thewatt.com/node/78

  Mr. Bossel sees hydrogen fuel cells for transportation as a dead end and the discussion is over due to the gross inefficiency of the hydrogen fuel cell process.

  He sees other applications for Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but not transportation.

   If the facts are as clear as Mr. Bossel says, it really makes you wonder why people are still talking about it.  I suspect it is just the people looking to profit from the "hydrogen future" that are still pushing this concept.

   For me, Hydrogen is dead until there is an answer to the efficiency question.

Later
John C. Briggs

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Somehow, I have missed this point about the Chevy Volt.
Even when the gasoline motor kicks in, Chevy is claiming only 40 grams/km of CO2.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/03/03/ap6117633.html

So let's compare

Toyota Prius               128 grams/km
Honda FCX Clarity      101 grams/km   (hydrogen fuel cell)
Chevy Volt                    40 grams/km

I suspect Chevy has stretched the truth on this one.  Perhaps they have included some solar powered EV miles into this number.  How can the Chevy Volt produce 1/3rd the pollution of the most fuel efficient car currently available.

   But if even somewhat true, it really takes the shine off of the hydrogen powered vehicle.

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