EVcast #38: An Interview with Kim Bennett and Al Gore

Unrelated, but interesting EV video on CNN

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/20/gutierrez.diy.electric.cars.cnn

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Perhaps Al Gore is just one of these people that you either love or hate.  I can't stand to listen to the guy, even when I agree with him.

  Personally, I will never forgive the fact that for all his preaching about climate change, he built an enormous house with no consideration energy efficiency.  His electric bill was something like 10x a normal home electric bill.  He didn't even install CFLs until the media called him on this.  Then he invited the media to go shopping with him for CFLs and watch him install them.

  For me, Mr. Gore exemplifies the attitude of "Think Gobally, do nothing locally".

   A few significant points here.  The cost of solar panels has been rising for the past 5 years or so (after years of decreasing).  Check out the graph on www.solarbuzz.com.  Despite what Gore says, the price of solar panels is rising with demand (normal economics), just like oil.  Perhaps he will be right over the long term and prices will decrease further into the future.  I hope that is true.

    Secondly, residential solar electricity is probably the most expensive form of electricity currently available and costs something like 30 to 60 cents/KWH to produce.   I know, because I have solar panels on my roof.  I think it is the right thing to do, but not exactly cheap.

   As for the cheapness of running EVs on electricity, I guess this is basically correct.  However we need to be careful to have an apples-to-apples comparison.  Many EVs are small vehicles and are efficient for that reason.  It is not reasonable to compare the cost of running these small EVs with the cost of the typical large american SUV.  The person that "Needs" a big SUV will not be content with a small EV.  Smaller cars are cheaper to run whether they are gas or electric.

One other point, the cost of purchasing the EVs may be higher than ICE cars, and this  will reduce or eliminate the savings on gasoline.  So discussion of low running costs are misleading.  It would be a bit like saying I get "free" electricity from my solar panels.  Well, the electricity is "free" after a $26,000 investment, so not exactly free.

    The idea that we should not be sending oil money out of the country is correct.  That money is better spent here in the USA.  I feel good about the fact that my solar panels and inverter are made right here in Massachusetts in the USA.  My friends and neighbors have jobs because of these companies.

Mr. Gore should be careful about overstating his case so that he doesn't undermine his efforts.

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Bo,

    You really must have Kim on more often.  She has such a lovely voice, a great accompaniment to your deep tones.

John

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Bo,

   If you have not already picked a Solar Panel installer, you might want to give these guess a try.

http://www.nexgenenergy.com/

They did a great job for me and my sister-in-law.

Thanks

John C. Briggs

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So you getting the Tesla!  Woo-Hoo!  Congrats guys!

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Here is the youtube video of the speech, in case you want to watch as well as listen;)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9wZloG97U
I too have never necessarily been a big Al Gore fan, and I certainly have been neither a liberal or Democrat- but this speech mostly hit it on the head for a lot of the concerns I have for our future.

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Ah:

Why should we like someone who asks us to take another approach instead of war and greed?

http://www.wecansolveit.org/

Rod

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Gore's home was built 80 years ago and has been renovated to be a energy efficient as possible.  He has solar panels, geothermal heating, and solar heats his pool.  I think he also has staff working there and uses it as offices.  CFL lights will be replaced by LED lights and will not contain mercury.

Solar panels considering the dollar index or a energy commodity index have been dropping very fast during the last 5 years.  When you pay for a war by cutting taxes you create a monster deficet which basically destroys the dollar.  Furthermore, electricity prices have actually dropped in the USA during the last 15 years.  The reason, the threat of solar and the less demand due to more energy efficient devices.  Solar prices have also risen in Euros most likely due some corruption in the Euro and temporary solar demand while new lines come online.

So in summary, as new innovations and new supply are added to photovoltaic lines.  Energy Ratio in pv prices in dollars/commodities index in dollars will continue to crash.

Photovoltaics is very competitive already especially when you can install a pv system on your roof cheaper than you can install a tile roof in California.  Energy payback is less than 1 year and system payback is less than 10 years.

If you take a electric SUV and a gas SUV with the same performance, the cost to fuel the electric SUV would be less than $1.00 per gallon equilivent.   Chelsea Sexton said $0.80 a gallon.

In mass quantity there is no doubt about it an electric car would be far less to make, buy, and operate than a gas vehicle.  Batteries of these vehicles can be recycled (and it should be required that a  battery manufacturers recycle them).  I can buy a 5hp shopvac for $39, I would not be surprised to buy a new $200 electric motor and controller in quantity (I would except the to be manufactured as one unit).  With the batteries being 100% recycled and possibly owned by the battery supercap companies all you would pay for is remanufacture.  Far less than paying the $70 a lb fee for the lithium today.

After looking at a picture of Gores home there is no way he could possibly use the amount of electricity those in the right-wing reports claim against him.  I think he should investigate overbilling.

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Bill,

   While it is good to be skeptical of what is reported about Al Gore, I think the electricity and gas billing is accurate.  One thing to note is that there does not seem to be a denial of the bills.  Al Gore never says the bills are wrong.  He probably can't because it seems to be part of the public record.

    So in the end,  Al Gore's home, at least in 2006 and 2007, used 20x the electricity of the average home.  So it is "Think globally, do nothing locally".

    Or a slight corrrection, do nothing locally until you are caught.  After the fact, Gore started installing CFLs and buying green energy and installing solar panels.  These are all good things, but in the end it looks like "greenwashing".

    I appreciate your interest in solar PV.  However, I own solar PV and I think we need to be honest about its limitations.  Solar PV is expensive and saying that it is cheap or will be cheap does not change the fact that it is actually expensive. Residential solar PV is the most expensive form of electricity I know of.

    Various countries have implimented FITs (Feed In Tariffs).  Residential PV is, in some cases, given its own catagory and subsidies of up to $0.60/kwh.  This is highest subsity of any renewable.  Commercial (large scale) PV solar is typically given a lower subsidy.  By comparison, wind power is almost competitive with commericial electric rates without subsidy.  So, personally I love solar, but it is expensive.  If the government is going to support renewable energy, the money might be better spent on something other than residential solar PV.

    I agree with your numbers about the cost of running an electric car.

    I agree that the cost of electric motors and controllers will be low in the future.  However, isn't the battery cost the real issue?  Do we really think this cost will come down?

    Surely battery recycling will happen.  However, as electric vehicles come into existance, the world will need a dramatic increase in the number of batteries in service.  This will place a lot of pressure on the mines to produce this material for a long time into the future.

Later

John C. Briggs

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Bill,

  The link below is the most thoughtful discussion and investigation of Al Gore's electric bill that I found.  There seems to be independent confirmation (the AP) that his electric bills are high but perhaps only 18x rather than 20x the average household.

     They have a detailed discussion to show that he is NOT a hypocrite.  While they are probably correct on the detials, his actions to reduce his carbon footprint have been very little and very late.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/government/a/al_gore_energy_2.htm

Thanks

John C. Briggs

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Put yourself in Gore's shoes.  He and his wife went house shopping.  He bought the 80 year old home in 2002.  I highly doubt he did anything to increase its energy use.  Just looking at the picture below I highly doubt the home uses 213,000 KWh annually.  That being said, this should be unacceptable to Gore, he should level the house and rebuild it as a zero energy home.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-6-23/72272.html

Why do you know since you have solar panels on your roof when you can just look up the costs in Home Power magazine or on the net.

$0.80 a watt - Zomeworks tracker 120

$0.60 a watt - SunnyBiy grid-tie

$0.50 a watt - misc. parts.

$4.83 a watt

= $6.73 a watt

$6.73 a watt, 7 sun-hours a day (due to use of tracker), 80% efficiency, 30 year lifespan (not a high estimate).

$0.11 KwHR

Furthermore, most subsidies are like $4 a watt.  However, they aren't really needed anymore.  What is needed is free easy access to the grid.  Most net metering laws are limited to 2.5% of the installed base.  What should happen is charge the utility to connect your power to the grid and all delays.  If you provide them with a live wire, they must install it to their meters at their cost.

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Bill,

   Let's see should I trust the HomePower numbers or the actual price for the system that I purchased.  I think I will stick with the actual installed cost.  Installed cost is $26,000 for 3.0 KW system.  $8.67/KW.  The output per year is 3600 KWH.  So if we asssume a 25 year lifespan, this is 90,000KWH.  This is $0.29/KWH.  This is currently a signifcant premium over the $0.19/KWH I am paying in Boston (one of the most expensive places in the nation).  

   On the other hand, if electricity rates go up, this is on parity.

   I think the difference between our numbers is the following

1) Your installed cost numbers are too low.  I have looked at a numbers for residential systems and they are generally $9/watt installed.  There is a cool site that lists a large number of California systems and the installed price per watt.  Large commericial systems are closer to $6/watt, economies of scale.  This is without subsidy.

2) The idea of using a tracker is basically dead.  No one is recommending them anymore.  They are too unreliable.  The ones that I have seen are generally locked in place because the owners have given up on them.  Real Goods does not recommend tracking.  It is a nice engineering trick, but does not seem to work in the real world.

3) Location.  Well here in Boston I don't think there is any way to get 7 hours of good sunlight everyday.  There are better places for PV, I am sure.

4) Life span.  Right, well no one knows, 30 years versus 25 years.  Real Goods suggests that you assume an inverter replacement at 15 years which adds to the cost.

  I am just trying to give you numbers for an actual system here in Boston, and it looks like $0.29/KWH.  This is not terrible, but not exactly cheap.  OH, and I had to write a check for $26,000.  So it is hard to see this as cheap.

     Bear in mind, the home owner gets to compare his current rate from his utility ($0.19/KWH) with the cost of his PV power ($0.29/KWH).  So this doesn't look that good.  But the situation for the commercial customer is even worse.  The commercial (Solar Power Plant) customer must produce power competitive with other production means.  In Boston, the cost of producing electricity is $0.08/KWH.  The diffference between the $0.08 production cost and the $0.19/KWH that the customer is charged includes transmission costs and other factors.

    So PV looks much worse from the commercial side if you are trying to be a Solar Electric Power Plant like the ways that Wind Farms are constructed..

    True, subsidies help.  I got $7,000 and might get up to $3,000 more at tax time (althought I have been screwed out of these tax breaks before). 

   But whether I pay for the system or someone else pays for the system, the cost is still $0.29/KWH.  Not cheap.  Clearly, there is more bang for the buck spending the money on conservation or wind power.

   So solar power is cool, but not cheap.  I am just guessing here, but I suppose you don't have solar PV on your house.  Also a further guess is the reason for that is it is too expensive.

    As for net metering, I would love to be able to bank my excess summer KWH and use them in the winter.  Right now, they pay me for the KWH at commercial rate ($0.08/KWH).

Thanks

John C. Briggs

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Bill,

    All appearances seem to be that Al Gore's home did use that amount of electricity.  The only time I have heard of such usage (aside from pot growers) is electrical heat of a swimming pool. 

    I think this shows the importance of conservation (not just for Mr. Gore) but for everyone.  In my home I now use only 300KWH/month and I used to use 1100KWH/month.  Conservation is a great investiment.

Later

John C. Briggs

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Silly me,  Solar Buzz has the answers for solar energy prices.

http://www.solarbuzz.com/SolarPrices.htm

$39.85/kwh residential

$29.62/kwh commercial

$21.50/kwh industrial

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